Can I rant about some fics (not ones on this forum!)

[leaptad]

This isn't related to fics on this forum!! This is completely regarding fics I've seen on other forums!!

I guess this was, to some degree, discussed in another thread a while ago, but I'm feeling the need to bring it up because I've seen a lot of them lately.

What the hell is with all the incest fics? I mean, seriously, how gross is that? There was one fic that said "incest" in the warnings, and for some reason I figured they meant it as a plot device (like Don was chasing some bad guy who raped his daughter or something)...but NO! It was Don/Charlie incest! Obviously, I stopped reading immediately.

What floored me is that people were posting comments like, "Oh, that was great." GROSS!

I remember a little bit from the sociology (sp?) class I took in college, and did you know that incest is the only universal taboo? That's right, even primitive cultures who did things like canabalism DIDN'T DO INCEST!

Why are people sexualizing it? Why are people reading it? Are all these people just sick freaks?

Okay. I'm done. Just had to get that out.

[lizabethe_517]

Why are people sexualizing it? Why are people reading it? Are all these people just sick freaks?
Apparently they are. What the hell is wrong with those people, man? That's why I love the fan fic here. We don't have that sick tripe. EEWWWW. Sometimes we may all differ in opinions here... but there are some lines that you just don't cross. Ever.

[starby]

There's actually an article here (http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19950501-000028.html) written by a psychologist that explores why people have taboo thoughts, if you want a semi-logical explanation.

[lizabethe_517]

Thanks for the article starby! It was very enlightening. Yay, I'm normal after all. Who hasn't been tempted to ram that guy on the beltway who drives like a complete ass? Sexual fantasies? Okay, I can get on board w/ that. Incest though?....Still ill. I just can't get past that one.

[marymoss]

I had the same reaction when I accidently read part of one of those fics. The only think I can think of is the authors see the brotherly closeness between the actors and view it as sexual closeness. Plus the fact that it's not real life makes it easier for them as well. They see it as two actors playing brothers rather than two brothers.

That's just my guess though. But I agree with you, it is sick.

[Lisa]

Ew... just... ew.

[prbabe]

Yeah, WHERE are people getting that vibe from anyway?
Gag me with a spoon!

Anyway, I did find two good stories on http://numb3rsfic.cellophanesun.com/index.php
Check out "Urban Legends" by Krisadae and, for all of you Charlie/Amita shippers out there, take a look at "A Beautiful Moment" by Minttown1 (I'm no Charlie/Amita shipper myself and even I liked it).
I think that you'll enjoy both stories.

[Islandgirl]

some *SICK* fanfic writers out there!!! How anybody can see "brotherly love" and translate it into "homoerotic incest" is beyond me.
I do appreciate everybody here keeping things clean and decent. BTW, I've got no problem with reading sexually explicit fanfic -- read my share of smutty X-Files stories -- but not involving incest!!

[Sara]

What the hell is with all the incest fics? I mean, seriously, how gross is that? There was one fic that said "incest" in the warnings, and for some reason I figured they meant it as a plot device (like Don was chasing some bad guy who raped his daughter or something)...but NO! It was Don/Charlie incest! Obviously, I stopped reading immediately.


I actually think I stumbled upon the same fic you're talking about and I got a few paragraphs into it and went, woah, what the heck is this?! It's truly disgusting. As to why people are into that, I think marymoss makes a good point that people may be seeing more of the actors themselves rather than true brothers. That being said, there's nothing about RM or DK that should inspire anyone to write that way! It just isn't right. I wish sites wouldn't post it along with normal fiction where people can accidentally stumble upon it. It should be banished to the island of misfit fics :D

[Mr Wizard]

:shock: Yuck! I see a lot of those too, and it surprises me that on some fan sites the number of incest fics actually outnumbers all of the others. GROSS!

[Islandgirl]

has anybody come across any Don/Terry or Charlie/Amita shipperfic where they do a bit, er, more than just kiss?? So far all the NC-17 fanfic related to this show that I've seen has been the above-mentioned nasty incest stuff. I've read several sweet shipperfics for both couples, but it's all been PG- type stuff.
If nobody has written any explicit non-incest stories, I guess I could take the plunge and write the world's first Don/Terry and Charlie/Amita sex scenes, but I won't post them here. 8)

[wildfyre]

Need a beta reader for those? :twisted:

[LadyShelley]

Unfortunately, incest slash is not new, I know it exists in the Simon and Simon fandom.

Personally, I'm just not into slash at all and for the same reason I don't read 'ship stories: I don't like romance stories. That being said, I think the reason we're seeing so many incest stories is that the folks that read and/or write slash haven't got any other characters to really play with in this fandom. Larry and David aren't developed enough to really put those characters in a story, so who are they left with? Don and Charlie.

I was happy to see Patterns drop the Real People Fics (another major squick of mine) and wish she would stop the incest fics, too, but it's not my site so ...

Another thing is the show's premise, so many people are afraid of math they don't want to try and write a case story that uses it, so instead they are writing character pieces (which is fine), or "moment" stories. The 'shippers have all sorts of possibilities, but again the slash readers aren't left with much to work with. The result being there isn't that much out there for fans who don't want to read/write romance to kinda counter weight the amount of incest fic we're seeing.

Please don't think I'm defending this story type, because I'm not; my squick meter goes off the chart with incest fic, but maybe it helps to explain why there is so much of it out there.

[Xanthia Morgan]

I will add my agreement to the Ick Factor of incest fics. I have seen some well done slash in my fan fic readings but sometimes even then it's like - come on! Not everyone on the planet is gay.

As for the NC-17 hetero fics -- I do know someone who has written a couple and posted them on her own very well done site. I will see if she will allow me to list her e-mail for anyone interested to contact her.

[wildfyre]

Just to clarify...I was responding to Islandgirl's more explicit stories...not the original topic of incestual tales :oops:

Don't want to sound like I'm into what those freaks are writing elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm very much into the incest. Why not? If Don and Charlie want to go at it, who am I to stop them? It's more of the fascination of the pairing. Yes, it may be 'sick' and 'wrong', but the relationship is absolutely fascinating to read about. It's a fetish.

[starby]

If Don and Charlie want to go at it, who am I to stop them?

I dont mean to be judgemental, but where are we getting that Charlie and Don want to do those things? I dont recall any dialogue in the episodes that were along those lines.

[total_g33k]

I dont mean to be judgemental, but where are we getting that Charlie and Don want to do those things? I dont recall any dialogue in the episodes that were along those lines.

Yeah, I agree...I mean it's bad enough that people are writing slash stories based on the show. I don't mind them...I just don't like it when they are people I like...I mean, does anyone actually like reading a homosexual story about someone they admire or had a wee bit of a crush on (although with Charlie/ DK it might be a little more than a wee bit)??? I personally think that it's vulgar...and it ruins my perspective on that character. Actually, so far with the "shipping" stories based on Numb3rs, I've been really pleased because for the most part, the stories have had great plots without having *too* much detail. It provides a nice break from the extreme stroies I've stumbled upon here and there. Bottome Line: I think if you're going to write a fanfic where characters are going to be "romantic", keep it respectful to the character, the writer that came up with him/her, and the actor that plays them. And if you keep it somewhat "innocent", I really don't mind the more "racy" discriptions.

[Xanthia Morgan]

has anybody come across any Don/Terry or Charlie/Amita shipperfic where they do a bit, er, more than just kiss??

I know of someone who has written two rather steamy fics along the lines you're looking for. You can contact the author at

M. Marchand at btn@ByTheNumb3rs.com

If you e-mail M. you can get a hold of the link for the stories. It's not a widely publicized site (I'm not sure it's even in general circulation yet) but contains some excellent fics by this author.

[leaptad]

I know there was a discussion about story ratings on this board not so long ago, and it seemed generally agreed that we would keep things PG or PG-13. That's one reason A Primal Moment doesn't go any father than it does.

[Islandgirl]

maybe I'd rather write my own sexy Don/Terry and Charlie/Amita stories BEFORE I read any explicit stories by other fanfic writers. I completely agree that this forum should be kept "clean" with stories only of a G- to PG-13 rated nature posted here.
I've got one more PG-13 story about ready to post. After that (presuming that nobody throws virtual bricks at me because it's so awful or anything) I'll probably write a somewhat more explicit one; although "explicit" by my standards is tame compared to much of what's available on the net. . .my "sexy" stories are definitely more R-rated than NC-17. I'll work out some way to let those of you who want to read it know when it's done. 8)

[Molly]

Keep me posted, Islandgirl. :wink:

[lizabethe_517]

Islandgirl-Count me in too!

Molly-Love the new avatar! (didn't recognize you at first... :wink: )

[Lisa]

Molly-Love the new avatar! (didn't recognize you at first... :wink: )

I know! I've had to readjust to what people "look" like because everybody's getting new avatars. I'm gonna make a new one tomorrow (you know... peer pressure lol).

[Ecri]

I'm so glad the majority of people here don't like the incest fic.

Sometimes we may all differ in opinions here... but there are some lines that you just don't cross. Ever.

I couldn't agree more!

Unfortunately, incest slash is not new, I know it exists in the Simon and Simon fandom.

Eeewwwww! I didn't need that visual!

Another thing is the show's premise, so many people are afraid of math they don't want to try and write a case story that uses it, so instead they are writing character pieces (which is fine), or "moment" stories.

That nearly frightened me away. You'll notice Manipulation doesn't have any specific mathematical theory. I love math in that I understand the attraction of it, the logic of it...I just don't understand any of the higher maths. I try. I tried in college, but I just couldn't do it. I wanted to so badly, but my brain doesn't work that way.

[Alice I]

Well, I'm very much into the incest. Why not? If Don and Charlie want to go at it, who am I to stop them? It's more of the fascination of the pairing. Yes, it may be 'sick' and 'wrong', but the relationship is absolutely fascinating to read about. It's a fetish.

I just wanted to put in my 2 cents and I apologize up front if I sound hypocritical.
I wrote a post on one of my threads that essentially said:
Everyone has a right to their opinion and should be allowed to voice that opinion.
Well I find myself taking that back just a bit. Someone else posted that there are lines that just shouldn't be crossed and this is most certainly one of them.

Incestlover, would you find the rape or sodomy of a child OK?
Would you say “why not” to child pornography?
I understand that the incest fics out there are about adults and not children but why does the fact that they are adults make it all right? Depravity is depravity regardless of age.

It is my opinion that incest is not only wrong and should never be glorified, but it is also an indication of mental or emotional instability. In short it is evil.
If that sort of thing ever made its way onto this forum I would be the first one to delete the link to this site in my favorites menu and would never return.

I can't really weigh in on the slash stuff because I won’t read it. If I ever accidentally happen across it (which thankfully I haven't) I would simply stop reading.

I do like to read love scenes, even graphic ones, if they are well written. I am, after all, a grown adult with the same natural biological urges as every other woman, but I find nasty language (and you all know what I mean by that) a complete turn off. (Yes I am a bit of a prude) But that is not to say that I don't like reading sex scenes if they are written with respect to the characters and reader.

That said, I apologize for offending anyone if I have.
I do not however apologize for my views on incest or any other degenerate issue.

[rbriggs]

That said, I apologize for offending anyone if I have.
I do not however apologize for my views on incest or other any degenerate issue.

I'm certainly not offended, Alice I.

I would like to take this one step farther and suggest that this person's screen name should have been looked at a little more closely before granting them access to the board. I don't know what the protocol is for that, it may not even be possible. The appearance of that particular screen name is disturbing to me. IMHO it is totally contrary to the general spirit of this forum.

[LadyShelley]

I would like to take this one step farther and suggest that this person's screen name should have been looked at a little more closely before granting them access to the board. I don't know what the protocol is for that, it may not even be possible. The appearance of that particular screen name is disturbing to me. IMHO it is totally contrary to the general spirit of this forum.

Rbriggs,

This sounds like a good idea on the surface, but it won't work long term, for several reasons.

1. Boards are anonymous, there is no way to moderate such things as screen names (at least I've never heard of a way and I've played on several different board systems.)

2. You notice this person hasn't posted since the comment in question was made. The screen name and the position taken could be seen as a troll. I emphasis that could be part, though since s/he has not been back since to defend the point of view, troll does seem likely. Let's not feed the hairy beasts, kids.

3. While this instance of screen name may be clear cut, other names may not. What if someone thinks wildfyre is a pryomaniac because of her name and demands it be changed. I'm certainly not the member of any peerage, so someone could demand that I change my name as it's insulting to the true peerage. It's a slippery slope to start wanting that sort of regulation, we can regulate it ourselves once again by not feeding the hairy beasts.

[rbriggs]

I would like to take this one step farther and suggest that this person's screen name should have been looked at a little more closely before granting them access to the board. I don't know what the protocol is for that, it may not even be possible. The appearance of that particular screen name is disturbing to me. IMHO it is totally contrary to the general spirit of this forum.

Rbriggs,

This sounds like a good idea on the surface, but it won't work long term, for several reasons.

1. Boards are anonymous, there is no way to moderate such things as screen names (at least I've never heard of a way and I've played on several different board systems.)

2. You notice this person hasn't posted since the comment in question was made. The screen name and the position taken could be seen as a troll. I emphasis that could be part, though since s/he has not been back since to defend the point of view, troll does seem likely. Let's not feed the hairy beasts, kids.

3. While this instance of screen name may be clear cut, other names may not. What if someone thinks wildfyre is a pryomaniac because of her name and demands it be changed. I'm certainly not the member of any peerage, so someone could demand that I change my name as it's insulting to the true peerage. It's a slippery slope to start wanting that sort of regulation, we can regulate it ourselves once again by not feeding the hairy beasts.

I understand, and acknowledged in my post that it probably wasn't possible. I'm nowhere near as experienced as you and so many others at fan forum participation, but I'm getting better. Thanks for the insight. I really do appreciate it.

[LadyShelley]

I understand, and acknowledged in my post that it probably wasn't possible. I'm nowhere near as experienced as you and so many others at fan forum participation, but I'm getting better. Thanks for the insight. I really do appreciate it.

Oh I'm not saying you didn't, the main point of my post was to deter folks from feeding the trolls, which is what I think the post in question really was.

For those of you new to the world of message boards, trolls are sophmoric attempts to start flame wars in public. They are usually people who have never posted to a particular board before and probably never will post to that board again, but they make an inflamatory post, and then site back to watch the show as everyone else froths at the mouth to contradict the statement he made. Hence the long standing tradition to not feed the hairy beasts, if they don't get sustenance, ie the board or thread going up in flames for their personal entertainment, then they will go somewhere else and try again.

[wildfyre]

What if someone thinks wildfyre is a pryomaniac because of her name and demands it be changed.

Whoa, never thought of that before LS. I hear the name/word wildfire, and I automatically think of the song about the horse. I never thought about it being misconstrued as a pyro enthrallment. While my moniker can be taken either way, there is only one way the name in question could be taken, no?

I'm just thankful that except for that one name, posters here remain filth-free in their choosing of screen names. And they have been quite imaginative in their thinking!!!

That's all that's on my mind right now. Really not relavent, but hey, thought I'd toss that out there anyway.

[leaptad]

Regarding the screen name, it's also possible it was a regular poster who was using an "assumed" screen name because of the highly sensitive nature of what they were posting.

I have seen certain screen names blocked on another board I frequent. They block out certain words that they consider offensive (including, in some cases alternate spellings) and that includes screen names. It can get a bit frustrating with words like "prick" where there is a dirty meaning and also a very common one (like a pin prick) that is not offensive at all. But we just work around it.

I'm certainly not suggesting that I want anything like that on this board at all. I prefer to have people police themselves.

[Anonymous]

I mean it's bad enough that people are writing slash stories based on the show. I don't mind them...I just don't like it when they are people I like...I mean, does anyone actually like reading a homosexual story about someone they admire.

. . . Excuse me? Incest is, as had been said here before, illegal and a universal taboo. Personally, I don't see how you can even compare it to a normal, healthy, adult relationship between any two people. And why on earth would seeing someone portrayed as a homosexual make you admire them any less?

I find most "slash" fiction much less offensive than, say, Charlie/Amita, a ship based on a pairing where one character is in a position of power over the other and a relationship could destroy both of their careers.

[Kevlar]

I agree that incest fanfic is—as many of you so delicately put it—“gross.” It deals with a part of human nature we consider repugnant; we shun people who do it. But let’s not confuse the act itself with the literature, nor the perpetrator with the writer. (I use the term “literature” loosely because so much of the Numb3rs incest fanfic I’ve seen is poorly written.)

There is a hallowed tradition of exploring taboo subjects—including incest—in literature. Lord Byron’s Manfred and Shakespeare’s Hamlet leap to mind, but there are many others. Check out Jane M. Ford’s “Patriarchy and Incest from Shakespeare to Joyce.”

There is an equally strong historical tradition of repressing this type of literature because most people are uncomfortable shining a light on things they don’t understand. See, Otto Rank’s “The Incest Theme in Literature and Legend: Fundamentals of a Psychology of Literary Creation.”

For every literary giant like Byron or Shakespeare, there were hundreds of lesser gods who had the artistic courage to publish on this topic, and thousands of amateurs who wrote on the same themes. That’s all fanfic writers are, after all: amateur writers exploring themes in human nature using established characters from other stories. Instead of Greek gods and mythical creatures, our generation of amateur storytellers spin their own tales about Spock and Kirk, Mulder and Scully, or—in this case—Charlie and Don.

Personally, I read lots of books and short stories, watch movies and tv, and listen to music which is rife with themes considered distasteful: apartheid, genocide, rape, torture, murder, pedophilia, and yes, even incest. I stood in line when the movie Se7en came out (and not for Brad Pitt!). There's also a terrific new show on Fox, very gritty violent FBI crime drama, that premiered last night (The Insider) which I really liked. I find this stuff fascinating, though your mileage may vary. While we may be “forced” to read classics in school, like Measure for Measure, Lolita, or Uncle Tom’s Cabin, no one is forcing us to read the amateurs or what’s in today’s popular culture. Ultimately, my point is that no one is forcing any of us to read incest fanfic. If you don’t like it, just close the Explorer window or Firefox tab.

The real question is, why does it bother many of us here so very much? Is it our fear that this fandom will get stigmatized, labeled a certain way because there is so much incest fanfic? Are we worried that people will think “Numb3rs fanfic = fraternal incest” in the same way some people think “HP fanfic = adolescent boy sex”? Respectfully, if that’s such a concern for you, then you need to get another hobby. ;)

ETA: By the way, the Guest above is not me. I figured out how to stay logged in. <g>

[Anonymous]

ETA: By the way, the Guest above is not me. I figured out how to stay logged in. <g>

No, that was me. I just haven't bothered to register on these boards, as I only come here for the gen fic. I agree with your post though, and was considering making some of the same points in mine, but I thought it might be distracting, not to mention a little heavy, to address censorship vs. the literary exploration of taboo subjects at the same time as homophobia.

[zero]

Yeaah... I just made the discovery of incest slash yesterday night, and the resulting trauma forced me to chug half a coke and hug myself until I could put it out of my mind. o_O And here I was thinking the kind of stuff I write is disturbing, but that was just one step too far.

Though, whatever floats people's boats I suppose. Scared the crap out of ME, but hey, I'm a supporter of free-speech and open creative liscense, so I shouldn't complain or I'll sound like a hypocrite.

[Azukichan]

I agree with your post though, and was considering making some of the same points in mine, but I thought it might be distracting, not to mention a little heavy, to address censorship vs. the literary exploration of taboo subjects at the same time as homophobia.

Note: Disliking incest fics and being homophobic are not synonymous (did I use this word correctly?).

[Alice I]

ETA: By the way, the Guest above is not me. I figured out how to stay logged in. <g>

No, that was me. I just haven't bothered to register on these boards, as I only come here for the gen fic. I agree with your post though, and was considering making some of the same points in mine, but I thought it might be distracting, not to mention a little heavy, to address censorship vs. the literary exploration of taboo subjects at the same time as homophobia.

I just hope Guest, that you do not think of everyone who finds slash distasteful as homophobic.
I stated that I do not like slash and wouldn't read it, but I also stop my friends who are gay from describing their encounters to me. I usually say something like "Whoa, that is simply too much information"
Just because someone finds something distasteful does not make them bigoted.

As to the defense of the literary exploration of subjects like incest, bear in mind that there is a huge difference between Shakespeare and what the original post on this thread were talking about.
The incest fic I believe that Leptad was objecting to can in no way be compared to or put in the same league as Shakespeare or Joyce.

Someone made a comment along the lines of why write something like that about a character that isn't that way at all or someone you admire. I don't remember the exact quote but the point I think that the poster may have been trying to get across is simply this:
The Numb3rs characters are not the kind of characters that would do that. If you want to write incest fiction make up your own characters, rather than spoiling the image of well know and well loved characters such as Don and Charlie.
The reason that these writers use popular characters is so that people will read their stuff. Again if you want to write and read that sort of thing why can't you use characters of your own making?

I understand that everyone is allowed an opinion but I stand by what ever poster stated that there are some lines that simply shouldn't be crossed at least not with someone else's character.

[LadyShelley]

What if someone thinks wildfyre is a pryomaniac because of her name and demands it be changed.

Whoa, never thought of that before LS. I hear the name/word wildfire, and I automatically think of the song about the horse. I never thought about it being misconstrued as a pyro enthrallment. While my moniker can be taken either way, there is only one way the name in question could be taken, no?

Trust me I wasn't at all accusing you of anything, yours was just the first screen name I thought of that could have a double meaning if someone really started getting picky. My point was if someone really wanted to they could take issue with a lot of the screen names we have now, yours was an extreme example. :-)

[Kevlar]

As to the defense of the literary exploration of subjects like incest, bear in mind that there is a huge difference between Shakespeare and what the original post on this thread were talking about.
The incest fic I believe that Leptad was objecting to can in no way be compared to or put in the same league as Shakespeare or Joyce.

Yes, I was lamenting about that above. Most of the writing is, indeed, very poor. But I don't see what difference the quality of the writing makes. IMHO, it is what it is, regardless of how well it is written.

Someone made a comment along the lines of why write something like that about a character that isn't that way at all or someone you admire. I don't remember the exact quote but the point I think that the poster may have been trying to get across is simply this:
The Numb3rs characters are not the kind of characters that would do that. If you want to write incest fiction make up your own characters, rather than spoiling the image of well know and well loved characters such as Don and Charlie.
The reason that these writers use popular characters is so that people will read their stuff. Again if you want to write and read that sort of thing why can't you use characters of your own making?

I understand that everyone is allowed an opinion but I stand by what ever poster stated that there are some lines that simply shouldn't be crossed at least not with someone else's character.

If I understand correctly, your argument is against *any* fanfic that is "out-of-character" or OOC. Many people share your POV, but equally many take the opposite position. There have been long debates on this very topic in nearly every fandom, since the days before the internet, when all fanfic was printed in fanzines and sold at fan cons. This debate is almost as old as "Is the world flat or round?" (In the end, both sides were wrong on that one.)

The problem with criticizing a fanfic for being OOC is that the Numb3rs universe is not closed. Unlike Star Trek, Buffy and The X-Files, the show is on-going and the characters are still developing. So who's to say what is out of character or not? Only the show's writers (who are subject to many other factors, including the network, the advertisers, etc.). Consequently, many people hold the view that *all* characters of fanfiction are out of character, but especially if the series is on-going.

It's a pickle, isn't it? ;)

[Kevlar]

Yeaah... I just made the discovery of incest slash yesterday night, and the resulting trauma forced me to chug half a coke and hug myself until I could put it out of my mind. o_O And here I was thinking the kind of stuff I write is disturbing, but that was just one step too far.

Though, whatever floats people's boats I suppose. Scared the crap out of ME, but hey, I'm a supporter of free-speech and open creative liscense, so I shouldn't complain or I'll sound like a hypocrite.

Hey, zero. You sound like I did after reading my very first incest slash fic this week. I felt like I needed a chemical decontamination shower and an old-school Roman Catholic confession, just to get over the squick. But, yeah--open creative license. As long as no one is being hurt, and nobody's forcing you to read it, I see nothing wrong.

I'll read anything that's reasonably well-written. The worst it could do is make me question my preconceived notions of morality, think deeply, and do some research on the topic--which is exactly what I did this week. You didn't think I had ever heard of the books I cited above before this weekend, did you? ;) Quite the contrary. I read that one fic, sat around in misery for a few hours, then I searched on-line for answers, went down to my alma mater's library and pulled out a few books to read about incest in literature. I even talked to some friends about it. And I mulled it over. A lot.

I'm still thinking, in fact.

That's the beauty of it.

This is not to say I am in favor of allowing children to read incest slash, or having it posted here at the boards. Anyway, the Admin has already spoken on that issue, and I agree 100% with the position that was taken.

[ShadowGraffiti]

Incest is disturbing. As said before, I come from the Linkin Park Fanfiction boards, which were at one time joined with the Good Charlotte boards (bleck!!!). The Good Charlotters were always raving about their incest stories... and some even had incest photomanips in their signatures...

Thank the pancakes I'm here now!!

-Shadow

[Alice I]

If I understand correctly, your argument is against *any* fanfic that is "out-of-character" or OOC. Many people share your POV, but equally many take the opposite position. There have been long debates on this very topic in nearly every fandom, since the days before the internet, when all fanfic was printed in fanzines and sold at fan cons. This debate is almost as old as "Is the world flat or round?" (In the end, both sides were wrong on that one.)

The problem with criticizing a fanfic for being OOC is that the Numb3rs universe is not closed. Unlike Star Trek, Buffy and The X-Files, the show is on-going and the characters are still developing. So who's to say what is out of character or not? Only the show's writers (who are subject to many other factors, including the network, the advertisers, etc.). Consequently, many people hold the view that *all* characters of fanfiction are out of character, but especially if the series is on-going.

It's a pickle, isn't it? ;)

Well here’s the thing.
Incest or slash of the Numb3rs characters is not just OOC it is WAY WAY out of character.
My problem isn't when a character is written OOC because of the fact that those characters could change, and of course fiction is just that "Fiction"
BUT to use popular characters and write stuff that would NEVER EVER be acceptable under any circumstances to the owners of said characters is wrong.
It's not that it's just OOC, it is debasing the character.
I just can't buy the argument that it is OK just because it's fan fiction.

Now I understand why certain authors will not allow any of their characters to be used in fan fiction. I never really understood their objection until now.

Honestly if I were JK Rowlings I'd be...
damn I don't even have a word for how I would feel if I had created Harry and had seen some of the truly deplorable s*** out there about that character.

It's is disrespectful to the owners of the characters. Again if that is the sort of thing that works for a particular writer, why not use their own characters?

OK I promise I won't respond anymore to this argument.
We will probably simply have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[wildfyre]

What if someone thinks wildfyre is a pryomaniac because of her name and demands it be changed.

Whoa, never thought of that before LS. I hear the name/word wildfire, and I automatically think of the song about the horse. I never thought about it being misconstrued as a pyro enthrallment. While my moniker can be taken either way, there is only one way the name in question could be taken, no?

Trust me I wasn't at all accusing you of anything, yours was just the first screen name I thought of that could have a double meaning if someone really started getting picky. My point was if someone really wanted to they could take issue with a lot of the screen names we have now, yours was an extreme example. :-)

:) I just saw my name jump off the screen at me, and I thought 'Whoa, what'd I do now?' :wink: I understand why you chose it, but I never thought twice about it before your post.

It's all good. :D

[BeckyS]

I saw a post somewhere from Cheryl (might not have been here) where she mentions that she doesn't like what some fanfic writers do to her characters. I believe she was speaking primarily about slash -- I hope she didn't run into incest fic.

It's obviously not an overwhelming opinion among fanfic writers, but it's my belief that if I'm going to play in someone's world, I should stick to that world to the best of my ability. Yes, it's harder here because the characters are still developing, and what we THINK they're like can change with the next episode we see (for example, why Charlie doesn't drive), but there are still some general parameters to work within.

Cheryl also wondered why fanfic writers don't simply create their own world with their own characters. That is, in essence, what she and Nick did. They became fascinated with a concept and turned it into a world. I could go on for a while about why I prefer playing in her world rather than creating my own, but she has a point.

If you want to write about gay sex, then do so. Take courage in hand and create your characters so that their relationship makes sense. Same with incest. Create a world where that relationship is believable, which it simply is not in the world of Simon & Simon or Numb3rs. Incest can be very damaging psychologically, and none of those four characters have that kind of emotional damage.

So the challenge to us as writers, as I see it for the Numb3rs fandom, is to write the best stories we can, using the characters as Cheryl and Nick have created them. If we're going to borrow their creations, we should keep them as they are. To do less is, IMHO, disrespectful to Cheryl & Nick, and considering the lovely people that they are, I don't want to be that way to them.

Not trying to sound pure as the driven snow here -- I have different opinions for different fandoms. For this one, though, because of the high level of respect I have for Cheryl & Nick, I will always write the characters as close to their conception as I can.

And if that isn't enough, well, maybe I'll try Cheryl's advice and branch out into new territory -- my own characters.

Scary thought! :shock:

Becky

[Kevlar]

Becky, I respectfully disagree. Fanfic, in any form, is an homage. It used to be an oddity, but nowadays it's an important indicia of success. Good, bad or ugly--anything but apathy. If you don't have fanfic, your tv show is a flop. How do you know if you've really made it? Women write slash and other taboo fanfic using your characters!

A larger the numbers and the more diverse your fan activity (including every type of fanfic, filks, fan music videos, manga, message boards, blogs, etc.) the better. And if you're really good, the fans will pay the ultimate homage: a complete virtual season when you're off the air. Check out this article from Slate, with lots of great links. http://slate.msn.com/id/80225/

This truth about the link between television and the internet is so widely acknowledged that many people have been speculating we're overdue for the next stage of on-line fandom's evolution.

Want to know how bad it is? Consider the fact that most studios set up the boards and the fanclubs, both official and "unofficial," for their shows. They foot the bill for the websites and forums, on which they jump start the discussions by posting spoilers. They cultivate BNFs ("big name fans") to ensure a loyal core following, much to the BNFs' delight. There are even a couple of well-known production companies that "seed the pond" if the fanfic is lame or non-existent for their shows. (Can't cite my sources on this one, but you tell me if it rings true.)

Having said that, if the Falacci's are truly offended by the slash and incest fic, then it's sweet of you to honor them by not writing that genre. But let's be honest, anyone who would abstain from writing a certain type of story, who would censor their own creativity and could stifle their own muse, probably never had the motivation to write it in the first place. That's just my 02 cents.

[Anonymous]

Note: Disliking incest fics and being homophobic are not synonymous (did I use this word correctly?).

I think I stated pretty clearly that they were seperate subjects and that is why I didn't want to address them in the same post. And I didn't call all people who dislike slash homophobic either.

I just hope Guest, that you do not think of everyone who finds slash distasteful as homophobic.

I don't and I don't think I implied that I did. The way the author phrased her objection to slash, it seemed to me to imply that she felt homosexual relationships in general were shameful. My use of the word homophobic was in response to that.

[BeckyS]

Becky, I respectfully disagree. Fanfic, in any form, is an homage. It used to be an oddity, but nowadays it's an important indicia of success. Good, bad or ugly--anything but apathy. If you don't have fanfic, your tv show is a flop. How do you know if you've really made it? Women write slash and other taboo fanfic using your characters!

Tell George Lucas that. I had a close call with his lawyers, and believe me, they did NOT consider fanfic (or fan art) of any sort an homage. I've also had a very amicable discussion with the lawyer who represents the producer of a couple of Western shows -- he stated that while fanfic was illegal, he and his client were willing to "let it go" because it promoted the franchise, and he expressed gratitude on behalf of the producer for the effort the fanfic writers of that particular fandom made to work within the spirit of the show.

Check out this article from Slate, with lots of great links. http://slate.msn.com/id/80225/

Will check it out -- thanks for the link.

This truth about the link between television and the internet is so widely acknowledged that many people have been speculating we're overdue for the next stage of on-line fandom's evolution.

I'd LOVE to know what that will be. Funny thing about Lucas -- he and his lawyers seem to hate fanfic, but they love the films people make that spoof Star Wars. I guess he sees himself as sponsoring the next generation of filmmakers or something. :roll:

There are even a couple of well-known production companies that "seed the pond" if the fanfic is lame or non-existent for their shows. (Can't cite my sources on this one, but you tell me if it rings true.)

Ummm. No. It does not ring true. Not saying you're wrong, but I sure as heck haven't seen it.

Having said that, if the Falacci's are truly offended by the slash and incest fic, then it's sweet of you to honor them by not writing that genre. But let's be honest, anyone who would abstain from writing a certain type of story, who would censor their own creativity and could stifle their own muse, probably never had the motivation to write it in the first place. That's just my 02 cents.

Hmm. As in another thread, I see you dumping censorship and prioritizing into one basket. It is not censorship or muse-stifling to choose to write certain types of stories that are more fulfilling to the author than other types. My preference in the NUMB3RS fandom seems to be settling into case stories. I like the action, I like the puzzle, and I like trying to fit math (which I don't really understand) into the story. It's my PREFERENCE to write stories that stick to canon. Heck, that's what I came to the show for -- for the show. For the creations of Cheryl and Nick. To muck around with the pillars of that creation means that I'm not writing NUMB3RS fic, I'm doing AU -- and I might as well take my imagination and create my own world.

I like to write stories that are tightly integrated, and I find that impossible to do if I make a fundamental change to the character. Other fic authors aren't bothered by it, and they have fun doing it. Since that's what this is all about, more power to them. I'll read them and probably actually like about half, but again, I choose to write what is fun for me to write. But thank you for worrying about my muse . . . I assure you, though, she's just fine. She gets plenty of variety (of all sorts) in other fandoms.

Becky

[Kevlar]

It is not censorship or muse-stifling to choose to write certain types of stories that are more fulfilling to the author than other types.

That's actually exactly what I meant. If you can stifle it or self-censor--for any reason, but especially for the reason you stated (not wanting to offend the original author)--then yours was probably not the strongest of motivations to write that type of story in the first place. You *prefer* other genres anyway.

And by the way, I'm not questioning your sincerity and your genuine regard for the Falaccis. In fact, I am moved just hearing about it. What I'm saying is it's much less of a sacrifice to give up beef for Lent if you're a vegetarian. You know what I mean? ;)

Now, if you come back and tell me you write incest slash in other fandoms, I will concede the point wholeheartedly and kiss your feet in apology. :P

[Alice I]

And if that isn't enough, well, maybe I'll try Cheryl's advice and branch out into new territory -- my own characters.

Scary thought! :shock:

Becky

Becky,
From what I have seen of your writing, I find it very believable that you could create a wonderful world filled with fabulous characters that people will want to read.
You have a genuine talent and shouldn't sell yourself short.

If you ever do create your own stories with your own characters I will be one of the first to read them. I am sure that most everyone else here feels the same after reading your work. :D

[Jelsemium]

"There is a hallowed tradition of exploring taboo subjects—including incest—in literature"

My main problem with incest fan fiction is that most of the writers aren't exploring the subject. They don't examine the ramifications - physical, mental, emotional or social. They're just writing smut stories using their two favorite characters.

I've come across incest stories in Numb3rs, Harry Potter and A Series of Unfortunate Events. The vast majority treat incest like it is fun, delightful and desirable. They remind me of stories where rape is depicted as being romantic and enjoyable for the victim.

To me, both cases show a total lack of respect for the characters and for the real life victims of these crimes.

[Kevlar]

Well, there are more ways than one to skin a cat or explore a theme. Having said that, it sounds to me like your rant is really about poorly-written fanfic, rather than about any particular theme or genre. If that’s the case, then I join you in the ranting.

[Jelsemium]

Yes, part of my complaint is about poorly written fiction. The reason I think that most fan stories about incest are poorly written is that the writers really don't grasp the truth about incest. And it really bothers me to see something that's hurt people I know and like treated as if it's nothing worse than over-indulging in chocolate.

[Anonymous]

Yes, part of my complaint is about poorly written fiction. The reason I think that most fan stories about incest are poorly written is that the writers really don't grasp the truth about incest. And it really bothers me to see something that's hurt people I know and like treated as if it's nothing worse than over-indulging in chocolate.

I think it's really presumptuous of anyone to think those writers "really don't grasp the truth about incest."

What exactly is "the truth about incest" and according to whom?

I mean, how can anyone say they know the truth about something like this...or what isnt?

I think someone already said it...if it bothers you don't read it.

[MMarchand]

I think it's really presumptuous of anyone to think those writers "really don't grasp the truth about incest."
What exactly is "the truth about incest" and according to whom?
I mean, how can anyone say they know the truth about something like this...or what isnt? I think someone already said it...if it bothers you don't read it.
Well whoever posted this may not have intended it this way but this is a troll. To post something like this that could be contrued as inflammatory is baiting people to defend their position despite the fact that this poster is obviously in an extremely tiny but vocal minority.

I urge folks to consider not responding to these remarks. If anything it's presumptuous of a community of people on a bulletin board about a TV show to try to be the arbiters and defenders of any societal norm. Society is who decides what is "truth" for the human race and since society has come out by and large unanimously against incest there is nothing more to say on that point that's not belaboring the question.

I have no power to stop this discussion. I can only state my opinion that at this point no progress can be made and no positive outcome can be effected by discussing it further.

Best,

M. Marchand

[Kevlar]

How unfortunate. The troll (if that's indeed what she was) actually made an excellent point, though it could have been stated much more delicately. To close the discussion down now seems like such a waste.

I agree with M that the vast majority in our society condemns incest--the act. I don't think anyone, including "Another Guest 2", is disputing that fact. But this discussion isn't about the act. It's about the writing. (Or at least I thought it was about the writing. Maybe I misunderstood.)

There is so much to be discussed about the writing. As long as we can keep in mind that there is a big difference between committing the act and writing about it, I see great value in having this discussion. I just wish someone more knowledgeable than I would voice an opinion for the other side of the argument, play the Devil's Advocate so to speak. It is so rare that a topic like this comes up, if ever, but it certainly does--over and over--in this fandom. In fact, this rare genre is 90% of what drew me to the Numb3rs fanfic boards. I was hoping to see some enlightened discussion on the matter. I was hoping to gain new insight. There is so much I don't understand about it. This forum seems like a mature, open-minded and thoughtful group; I hoped we could get past the condemnation of the act, which is a given, and move on to the more challenging discussion.

Am I the only one here who feels even the slightest twinge of intellectual curiosity about this? Say it ain't so.

[BeckyS]

Well, Kevlar, I'll start by going up the forum a little bit. I've been pondering your reply to my post about writing slash, not quite sure how to answer it. If I stated that I have written slash (and I'm not stating that, btw), I will gain your admiration but likely incur the wrath of a bunch of folks that I'd rather stay on good terms with. If I say I don't write slash, I lose your admiration but also don't lose some internet relationships that are important to me. I have chosen to remain silent on the subject.

I will, however, take up the gauntlet for a theoretical discussion of genres which I may or may not choose to write in. I'm always interested in intellectual exchanges.

First of all, shall we get out of the way the discussion of stories that are written as PWP -- whether "porn without plot" or "plot, what plot" the end result is the same: a story written for the sake of having a sex scene. I'm assuming you're not interested in discussing those.

Next step, if you haven't already read it, there's an incest C/D story that goes beyond PWP called "Parallel Connections Over Symmetric
Spaces" on the cellophane site. It would be a very good story if it didn't slash two characters who are NOT, IMHO, slashable. It does go into the psychological, though, demonstrating the implications of this particular choice, as well as giving reasonable backstory for it to exist. If it were original characters, it would work.

As someone who tries to stretch all aspects of creativity, yes, I read it. (I've also been searching out Massive Attack songs, even if my son is giving me strange looks.) Yes, I think it's well done. Certain Rap songs are well done. That doesn't mean I want to get out a microphone and start improvising rhyme. (It actually doesn't mean I want to be anywhere near anyone else improvising rhyme. You folks who like it, just go ahead and enjoy it without me. I'm heading out for a beer.)

Ahem. Anyway, to get back on the subject, any plot can be made workable, and any plot can be done well. IMHO, though, some things are appropriate for certain characters and m/m for Don & Charlie doesn't hit me right. Even as well-written a story as "Parallel" can't convince me that C/D works. Put in some different names, give the two main characters different jobs, and the story works quite well.

So when it comes to a story about incest or rape, or any other "socially unacceptable" practice, I say it still comes down to this: Is it right for the characters? Is it integral to the plot?

Actually, that's true for anything that goes into a story . . .

Becky

[Anonymous]

<a href="http://www.oggham.com/words/archives/000806.html">Parallel Connections Over Symmetric Spaces</a>.

I've read some pretty awful gen/het/slash/cest stories, out of character or just kinda ick, and likewise some pretty great stories. The subject matter isn't the same as the quality of writing OR the writer. Writers of horror stories don't go around torturing people. (Or if they do, they've learnt how to pen a good alibi!)

Stories come from inside our heads, but what we think and write about isn't the same as what we believe and do.

[Kris]

For those who don't realize (& it is apparent to me that some of you may not) none of these issues are new, & in fact, they'll probably multiply. As this fandom grows - which we're all hoping it does, yes? - so will the variance in fanfiction, & fans in general. It's just a side effect of popularity.

Different people enjoy different things. We're all human & we all have different tastes, especially concerning what turns us on intellectually, or sexually. We're going to become very protective of the characters we love & cherish, of Nick & Cheryl's creation, & we're going to want to fight off anything we perceive as threatenening to that, but be aware that this often makes for a very ugly fandom. Anyone involved in the Harry Potter fandom knows that, anyone involved in the Lord of the Rings fandom knows that. Those are full of shipper wars, of one or two fans dominating the fandom, & other generally horrifying things.

Which is why the golden rule in fandom is most often "live & let live", especially if you want Numb3rs to stay relatively free of petty wars over fanfic material, ships (Charlie/Amita shippers vs Amita "haters" for example), etc, which I assume you do. You avoid what you don't like, you praise what you do like, & you leave it at that.

As we grow, we're going to have to learn to peacefully co-exist with the things we think are disturbing, negative, or against the spirit of the show. What you think is desecrating the very thing you love is, to that other person, merely an exercise of their own love for that thing. You can argue that point all you want, but it's true, & if you don't like the way that person treats the characters & show, you find something you do like & stick to that. I don't like incest fic in any fandom, so I merely ignore it.

Please please please refrain from flaming, confronting, or harrassing fandom members for their likes & dislikes. I understand how passionate people can get about the things they love, but I'd like to see this fandom remain relatively peaceful & calm & full of people who can agree to disagree & do it in a non-rude, non-argumentative fashion. The only reason I bring all this up is because I've seen instances of confrontation involving the character of Amita already, instances of confrontation on other fanfic archives concerning fanfic posted there, & it worries me.

I'd like us to be regarded as a welcoming, sane fandom, not a crazy one like so many out there! I hope we continue to grow, but it'll be interesting to see where that takes us.

& I'm not pointing figures at anyone here, just addressing some of the things I've observed as we all discuss & debate about some of these things. It's been an interesting read. (:

[Kevlar]

<a href="http://www.oggham.com/words/archives/000806.html">Parallel Connections Over Symmetric Spaces</a>.

I've read some pretty awful gen/het/slash/cest stories, out of character or just kinda ick, and likewise some pretty great stories. The subject matter isn't the same as the quality of writing OR the writer. Writers of horror stories don't go around torturing people. (Or if they do, they've learnt how to pen a good alibi!)

Stories come from inside our heads, but what we think and write about isn't the same as what we believe and do.

First of all, let me try to reformat that link, so it works: http://www.oggham.com/words/archives/000806.html A fic that thought-provoking deserves a working link.

Second, I'd like to welcome you to this discussion, viggorlijah. I wrote you private feedback, but there is no such thing as too much praise in my book, so I'll say it again. This story made me question my preconceived notions of morality, empathize with "criminals," and think deeply on things I never really had the inclination to ponder before. It was the first of its kind I had ever read. I liken it to watching "Boys Don't Cry" or "Heavenly Creatures." Yes, I was walking wounded for a while thereafter, but at the end of the day, it was worth it. You have no idea how rare and wonderful that is for someone like me. Thank you seems so inadequate.

I wish you'd write more Numb3rs fanfic, regardless of genre. And if you need a beta for those pesky little Britishisms, punctuation, and a SoCal local's eye--well, you have my e-mail address.

Kevlar

[Kevlar]

Well, Kevlar, I'll start by going up the forum a little bit. I've been pondering your reply to my post about writing slash, not quite sure how to answer it. If I stated that I have written slash (and I'm not stating that, btw), I will gain your admiration but likely incur the wrath of a bunch of folks that I'd rather stay on good terms with. If I say I don't write slash, I lose your admiration but also don't lose some internet relationships that are important to me. I have chosen to remain silent on the subject.

Becky, I respect your choice to stay silent on the issue. But I do want to say one thing: in my opinion, anyone whose friendship or affection for you is contingent on whether or not you've ever written slash doesn't deserve your concern. It's not only the epitome of fickle friendship, it also implies a controlling influence over your artistic choices that you're better off without.

As for me, the fact that you have engaged me in this discussion and given thoughtful, well-articulated answers (even if I disagree with them) is enough to warrant my sincerest admiration.

In other words, "you had me at hello." ;)

[charlidos]

Which is why the golden rule in fandom is most often "live & let live", especially if you want Numb3rs to stay relatively free of petty wars over fanfic material, ships (Charlie/Amita shippers vs Amita "haters" for example), etc, which I assume you do. You avoid what you don't like, you praise what you do like, & you leave it at that.

Thank you for saying what I was thinking! And in a most eloquent way too. I've been wanting to say something about this for a while because I must say I find some of the comments in this thread to be a little disturbing. I've never understood why people have to tell others what they're supposed to think/do. If a certain type of story doesn't work for someone, why not leave it at that; it doesn't work foy YOU, but it may work for me.

Of course, it's quite different in cases where there are parts who need to be protected, who can't protect themselves (for instance children). But here we're dealing with fictional grown-ups who can't even have children. In other words, it's up to me if I want to read/write about it.

It's not an easy subject by any means, and I prefer when it's dealt with that way. But if writers always shied away from difficult subjects or never let their characters do things they're not supposed to, there wouldn't be very interesting literature, would there?

And "Parallel connections..." is an absolutely brilliant story that deals with this issue in a most beautiful and intriguing manner.

[Miriam Heddy]

Personally, I'm just not into slash at all and for the same reason I don't read 'ship stories: I don't like romance stories. That being said, I think the reason we're seeing so many incest stories is that the folks that read and/or write slash haven't got any other characters to really play with in this fandom. Larry and David aren't developed enough to really put those characters in a story, so who are they left with? Don and Charlie.

Um... as a slasher, I'd say that there's plenty of Larry to go around. He's actually pretty developed as a character (and I'd say he's far more developed than is Amita, about whom I know nothing more than she has a pretty belly button.)

If anyone's interested, all my Charlie/Larry is up here:
http://fangirlz.net/miriam.heddy/

[Jelsemium]

To me, what makes a character multidimensional is how they interact with the other characters. And something that annoys me in fiction, this isn't even confined to fan fiction, is the notion that the only possible relationship between two characters is a sexual one.

There's a whole spectrum of relationships in real life -- between parents and their children, between siblings, between friends and between co-workers, to name a few. If all you write about is a character's sex life, then you are ignoring much of what makes a character an individual.

While I enjoy romance and erotica, I don't want to limit my stories to just those two aspects of human nature.

[Miriam Heddy]

To me, what makes a character multidimensional is how they interact with the other characters. And something that annoys me in fiction, this isn't even confined to fan fiction, is the notion that the only possible relationship between two characters is a sexual one.

As a slasher, I totally agree, though I'd qualify that by saying that, on TV and in film, that assumption is fairly heterocentric. Men can and are on TV as whole people, interacting with each other as whole people, and if they run into another male character, the default assumption (on the part of the writers, usually, and nearly always on the part of the viewers) is that both men are heterosexual, and that therefore their relationship is not a sexual one.

OTOH, if there's a woman in the cast, even if she starts out being defined as a whole person with those "other possible relationships," she nearly always ends up there as a love interest, and her character often seems to be circumscribed and diminished by that role, even as the man she's paired with continues to be a person who does and thinks and acts outside of the romantic storyline and its attendant flirtations.

I remember loving SportsNight, but coming to hate it as Felicity Huffman (a spectacular actor) was reduced to unwatchable levels of unprofessional idiocy, horrible wardrobe changes, and scenes that were truly embarrassing, all because TPTB decided to develop her character as the primary love interest for Casey. She stopped being a producer and human being I cared about and felt like I wanted to know, and started to be a girlfriend and nothing more, and I lost the sense that she existed outside of her interest in pursuing and being pursued romantically.

I also really liked Sabrina Lloyd back on Sportsnight, and I think her character suffered as well from being turned into a girlfriend. In terms of Numb3rs, even before Terry (Sabrina Lloyd) left, I was more than a bit worried (what with the "double-date" thing) that her character would be reduced from psychology expert to nothing more than a chance to play "will they/won't they" with Don, even as Don continued to do interesting things and be in interesting scenes that had nothing at all to do with romance. I was really disappointed when Sabrina left only because I was holding out hope that she and Don would not play will they/won't they.

Recognizing that we've only had a single, short season, it seems to me that one of the reasons that so many of us are "Fleinhardts" (or is that "Fleinhardt's"?) is due to more than simply Peter MacNicol being a great actor. After all, compared to the lead roles, it's been a relatively small part. It's not necessarily even that he's got a bigger part than Navi Rawat, or has been in more scenes with DK (and really, I'm not absolutely sure that either of those things is true. Someone more obsessive than me or who has an interest in negotiating their respective contracts can tally the minutes *g*).

My point is that, though, in my slash stories, I pair up Larry with Charlie, I recognize that much of what makes Larry as interesting as he is in canon--and therefore someone who I want to spend time with and write about in fanfiction-- is that, in canon, he's a man who's defined and characterized by something other than looking longingly at Charlie. In some ways, slashers have the amazing chance to start with fully-functioning, highly developed, very life-like male TV characters and give them an erotic and romantic life, knowing that, even if we spend a lot of time single-mindedly developing and exploring their love lives, canon will fill in all the rest for us, continuing to give these men interesting cases to work, and good family scenes, and platonic friendships, etc.

OTOH, if I start writing heterotica with Charlie and Amita, I have no guarantee at all that canon will develop Amita <i>outside</i> of the role of romantic heroine who isn't in love with her betrothed but is in love with Charlie. So for me, it's more work to write and to get interested in writing heterotica because, really, people in love--and only in love--are pretty profoundly boring.

It's really the sum of all those other, non-sexual, non-romantic relationships that make us lovable and interesting.

[LadyShelley]

Personally, I'm just not into slash at all and for the same reason I don't read 'ship stories: I don't like romance stories. That being said, I think the reason we're seeing so many incest stories is that the folks that read and/or write slash haven't got any other characters to really play with in this fandom. Larry and David aren't developed enough to really put those characters in a story, so who are they left with? Don and Charlie.

Um... as a slasher, I'd say that there's plenty of Larry to go around. He's actually pretty developed as a character (and I'd say he's far more developed than is Amita, about whom I know nothing more than she has a pretty belly button.)

If anyone's interested, all my Charlie/Larry is up here:
http://fangirlz.net/miriam.heddy/

You're right there is now, but when I originally wrote that in March I think we had only 5 episodes aired, so Larry wasn't that developed yet.

[Miriam Heddy]

You're right there is now, but when I originally wrote that in March I think we had only 5 episodes aired, so Larry wasn't that developed yet.

Y'know, the really fabulous thing about being obsessed nowadays is that you can find, online, an under-five minute Larry/Charlie conversation and watch it five billion times, which seriously distorts your canon-sense, but is a joy nonetheless. :D

[Ranma064]

I don't know why you guys are so "ewww" about incest. I agree with the person who said "If you don't like it don't read it."

I recently read a Charlie/Don fanfic, my first one, and I have to say that I didn't like it that much. Truthfully I liked the Charlie/Don pairing more than Amita/Charlie because, frankly, I HATE Amita. *shrugs* But it's not like I'm goingi to die if I read one with Amita.

Just let it go ...

{As an after thought; Harry Potter slash rocks (especially Harry/Draco with Harry as the seme)}

Read the book The Sea Dragon Heir if you want to read brother/sister (who are twins) incest. lol

[jloomis]

Morally an legally Incest is wrong. And Don being a federal agents knows this. And even in the Jewish culture it is wrong an just the implication is a disgrace to everyone invovled with the show. THe closeness between the brothers is an awesoem relationship an I would perfer not to read about them doing enything other than what a family does.

True if you do not like it don't read it an I am not saying I have not read it. I am just saying there are young people on here. I think I am glad it has its own place an not on these boards.

On another note I really think any pairings between any of the regular members of the cast in storys is fine. As long as it does not happen on my tv screen I am cool with it.

[Miz Em]

Anyone who's seen me post on this forum knows I have very few personal squicks.

Character death is one, and incest is another. Incest is a VERY big squick. It's sick. I can't abide the thought of it, and I stay away from it like the plague.

To each his own, I'm sure, but it had better be well labeled, because I will go ballistic if I'm drawn in without warning.

[StatsGrandma]

In academic journals we have something we refer to as an 'impact factor.' That refers to how many times your article is referenced and, for better or worse, it affects how often and where you're published.

Slash fics are simply not to my taste. I don't read them.

Incest fics are another matter. While there is a longstanding tradition of incest in literature, religion, art, etc., if you want to write it, do it with your own characters. BTW, I've had kids I've taught who've been victimized by incestuous relationships, and it is downright ugly how it twists their psyches.

I do try to respect the spirit of what the characters' creators have done. I think if one is to do fanfic, one should honor that as well.

Reduce the impact factor by not reading. All slash fics and incest fics should at least carry a warning label.

[Jelsemium]

Just let it go? I thought we were leaving it alone. This thread has been dormant for over thirteen months.

The thing that gets me about slash is that when the mainstream, mass media talks about fan fiction, they don't usually talk about those of us who are trying to be true to the characters. They usually talk about the slash. I don't like being lumped into the same category as slashers.

[BeckyS]

It's been over a year since the original discussion, and I find it interesting to look back at my mindset and compare it to where I am now. I still have not changed my mind about the damage an incestuous relationship causes, both to the couple involved and their family and friends, but that said, just like with slash, gen, case, shipper, angst, h/c, case and all the other fic I've read since last year, I've seen some incest fic that has impressed me and some that hasn't.

There are writers who produce PWP (I prefer the more generic "plot, what plot?" which includes the sub-genre "porn without plot"), and I'm not interested in their stuff. Whether the excuse is a love scene (het, gay, or incest), angst or h/c (talk about some disgusting stuff people do to characters!), if that's all there is to the story, I'm not going to like it. (Actually, most people can't write a love scene to save their lives, regardless of the pairing - I usually skim right over it because it's invariably boring. Get on with the story, already!)

But some people put a lot of thought into their stories - they examine real life issues, concerns and relationships - and those are stories I'm drawn to. Regardless of plot. Regardless of pairing.

I completely understand that many people are squicked by slash, let alone incest, especially if you've seen it and the results in the real world. I've met people who couldn't handle listening to music by Richard Wagner because of his anti-Semitic stance. What you've seen and experienced in the real world colors what you prefer to read,

But I think some of you are mistaking the reason people write incest fic. For most of them, it's not because of some deep, dark psychological aberration, it's simply this: "want to write a story about the two major characters in this fandom" + "want to write a sex story" + "the two major characters are brothers" = incest fic.

When these writers are in a fandom such as CSI, you might end up with a Grissom/Sara story. Or at most, a Grissom/Nick story. In the Numb3rs fandom, though, you end up with incest.

So it's not that they're setting out to morph Don and Charlie into something they aren't; I doubt that many of them have even given their "plot" that much thought. They simply want to do a PWP story with their favorite characters.

What I find worthwhile is when an author rises above PWP and creates interesting, thoughtful stories such as "Parallel Connections" (incest & very, very dark) and Miriam's stuff (Charlie/Larry), which are an absolute delight. (I adored the seven aliens, and the amnesia story was superb.)

I will continue to read just about anything that's out there in the hopes of discovering those few gems, regardless of genre. And, for the most part, I will continue to write the characters as Nick and Cheryl envision them . . . unless some theme comes up that I can only explore by saying . . . "what if?"

Becky

[Kathleen]

I've read a few slash of another show, Starsky and Hutch that were good, but most of them... I just skim the slash sex part, cause it just doesn't interest me. Very few were well written.

I haven't ever read a Charlie/Don and don't think I will. It's too icky for me. So as long as the warning is there, I don't get upset. But if they don't warn you, that is a problem.

I go for strong characters, if I can believe the character...I can deal with a lot, but there are some things I'm not that open about.

Lets face it. With the ease of the internet, it is very easy to post something that stinks. But since I don't consider myself a great writer, I laugh at the mistakes and keep going unless I find the story just too hard to get interested in, then I drop it and move on.

Just my two cents worth. :rolleyes: