P Vs Np

[xoswimming08xo]

Hey people (david specifically) how are you doing that P vs NP? I wanna try it really bad. My math teacher doesn't encourage me to do it because I'm only in Intergated 2 math here at Richfield High School *shrugs with a sigh*. I try to follow along on some of the things Charlie explaines with math I somewhat understand it but other then that I get lost when he first explaines it haha. I think this quetion may have been answered before I came on this forum but "How do you guys do this math with the FBI?" I think its really sweeeeeeet! :eek:

When he get's things right from the math i'm like "Whoa! he just did that no way!"

If you haven't read about my post about how I'm new here...well I'm obsessed with math so my friends pick on me and yeah....they call me a freak because I like math *laughs*.

Well Please give me some information from all of you (and david hehe) about that P vs NP so I can try some of it.

Bye guys :cool:,

-Bri-

[Deetch]

I'm somewhat bewildered by your post, but Lady Shelley's website has some great math links.

Her page for P vs NP is here...
http://www.redhawke.org/content/view/29/11/

[LetterstoElise]

When P v. NP was introduced on the series, I was impressed but I tend to consider the act of solving a millenium problem the same as chasing windmills, at least for myself.

There was one episode where Don asked Charlie to solve Reimann's Hypothesis, and charlie had a look of disbelief on his face. I feel much the same about those problems in general.

Also, as a side note, don't let your teacher discourage you. Learn as much as you can. No one can tell you to stop that, no one can force you to stop that. Highschool sucks, there's no way around that, but you get to choose whether you learn or not.

I myself prefer to read about others solving the big world problems, but then again, I'm not a math person. I don't understand the mechanics of most of the math on numb3rs, but I do understand the concepts due to the writing of the show. I myself go and research it after I see the episode, and I know i'm not the only one.

Hm, i've dwindled in my point. Mainly I wanted to say that it is near impossible to solve P v. NP. Don't necessarily let that stop you. It took Einstein ten years to come up with E=MCsquared.
I'm just sayin, don't be disappointed. It's one of the hardest problems that exists.

[LetterstoElise]

sorry for the double post...

is this the same Bri that has my AIM name?

[xoswimming08xo]

yes Elise it is the same Bri you talk to on aim!!!!!!!!! :D

thank you thank you, I wuv yew!

-bri-

[LetterstoElise]

glad to see the boards worked out for you!

[fadedambition]

Hey people (david specifically) how are you doing that P vs NP? I wanna try it really bad. My math teacher doesn't encourage me to do it because I'm only in Intergated 2 math here at Richfield High School *shrugs with a sigh*. I try to follow along on some of the things Charlie explaines with math I somewhat understand it but other then that I get lost when he first explaines it haha. I think this quetion may have been answered before I came on this forum but "How do you guys do this math with the FBI?" I think its really sweeeeeeet! :eek:

When he get's things right from the math i'm like "Whoa! he just did that no way!"

If you haven't read about my post about how I'm new here...well I'm obsessed with math so my friends pick on me and yeah....they call me a freak because I like math *laughs*.

Well Please give me some information from all of you (and david hehe) about that P vs NP so I can try some of it.

Bye guys :cool:,

-Bri-


There are several equal representations of the problem. The version Charlie was working on would only be appropriate for you if you have a strong understand of graph theory and discrete mathematics. Some other versions require a deep knowledge of complexity theory from CS algorithms or a deep understanding in the theories for computing hardware.

I don't claim to understand your math background in fact I'm pretty confused about it from your description, but perhaps the logic version of the problem or another version of the problem might be easier for you to fully grasp and begin diving into. Even though the logic version is still pretty advanced obviously I think getting deeper into the rules and mechanisms of formal logic might be easier for you at this point then trying to absorb all the finer points of some of the other versions.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity_classes_P_and_NP

Logical characterizations
The P=NP problem can be restated in terms of the expressibility of certain classes of logical statements. All languages in P can be expressed in first order logic with the addition of a least fixed point operator (effectively, this allows the definition of recursive functions). Similarly, NP is the set of languages expressible in existential second order logic — that is, second order logic restricted to exclude universal quantification over relations, functions, and subsets. The languages in the polynomial hierarchy, PH, correspond to all of second order logic. Thus, the question "is P a proper subset of NP" can be reformulated as "is existential second-order logic able to describe languages that first-order logic with least fixed point cannot?"

[fadedambition]

When P v. NP was introduced on the series, I was impressed but I tend to consider the act of solving a millenium problem the same as chasing windmills, at least for myself.

There was one episode where Don asked Charlie to solve Reimann's Hypothesis, and charlie had a look of disbelief on his face. I feel much the same about those problems in general.

Also, as a side note, don't let your teacher discourage you. Learn as much as you can. No one can tell you to stop that, no one can force you to stop that. Highschool sucks, there's no way around that, but you get to choose whether you learn or not.

I myself prefer to read about others solving the big world problems, but then again, I'm not a math person. I don't understand the mechanics of most of the math on numb3rs, but I do understand the concepts due to the writing of the show. I myself go and research it after I see the episode, and I know i'm not the only one.

Hm, i've dwindled in my point. Mainly I wanted to say that it is near impossible to solve P v. NP. Don't necessarily let that stop you. It took Einstein ten years to come up with E=MCsquared.
I'm just sayin, don't be disappointed. It's one of the hardest problems that exists.

Not all math problems just have academic implications.

A proof positive for the P=?NP problem would indicate it'd be possible to sequence entire genomes and protenomes in dramatically less steps then current methods. That means we'd be able to understand genetic and protien profiles very rapidly this would be huge for those who want to work on human genetic disorders and for those who treat human diseases.

A proof positive in P=?NP would also mean there are effective routing solutions, "ideal" if you will, to very complex networks. This effects everything from operations and logistics for anyone who orders and ships anything to the infrastructure to corporate networks and the internet itself.

So while there are many deep academic implications to a proof positive or negative of P=?NP there are many big real world questions that could be solved or at least addressed from direct results of answering this question.

[fadedambition]

On a side note it has taken Perelman about ten years to effectively solve both the Poincare Conjecture and Thurston's Geometrization Conjecture.

[xoswimming08xo]

i hate reading! lol..sorry I just need to see the whole actuall math complexcity? is maybe the word anyhow but yeah any websites where it shows the math equations I could look at without having to read a whole bunch of shit afterwards? Cuz it's all a blurr..... :(

-briana-

[fadedambition]

i hate reading! lol..sorry I just need to see the whole actuall math complexcity? is maybe the word anyhow but yeah any websites where it shows the math equations I could look at without having to read a whole bunch of shit afterwards? Cuz it's all a blurr..... :(

-briana-

Well Briana once you've taken some calculus and differential equations you might be interested in attempting the Navier-Stokes Equations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier-Stokes_equations


That's pretty much the only Millenium Problem that is more like "just math equations". Even though even that problem isn't quite just equations I mean it has to do with mechanics particularly of gases and fluids. So some physics background would be a decent prerequisite as well.

All the Millenium Problems are here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenium_problems

And here of course:
http://www.claymath.org/millennium/

Clicking on anyone of the problems on the right hand side you can subsequently click on an option to read a formal description of the problem.

[xoswimming08xo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier-Stokes_equations.

I've started reading some of it...it sounds a little like science?

I'm only in intregated 2 here for math meaning I basically just learned the Quadratic Formula (very fun in my opinon) and i've learned other things like solving for x like 2x+4=8 that stuff and like substition and all....well I was reading and this symbole came across the reading Ω anybody know what it is? Is it just the same as that one that's like an 8 but on it's side that Charlie uses does it mean like infinate number or something?

Then that thing that Charlie uses that looks like a 3 I know that all ready my math teacher explained to me that it means if you put a 5 above it and a 1 you add 1,2,3,4,5 all together and that way is just making it shorter...

I can't wait to get into deeper math*blushs of emberassment* my friend last night I was telling her about that website and she's like "briana your such a math whore" and i'm like laughing and i go "thank you" so in my profile on AIM i have it saying "I'm a math whore!" hehehehe.

Well yeah that's pretty much what i wanna know right now what this symbole means Ω. Cuz it had after the symbole it explained something that the paragraph started explaining about then it has the 2Ω. Is that stuff all in calculus and shit?

Cuz I aint even in pre-calculus yet haha I'm only in 10th grade but math just intrests me because I love solving things (hint hint that's why I wanna be in the FBI).

well yeah thanks...

-briana-

[Deetch]

well I was reading and this symbole came across the reading Ω anybody know what it is? Is it just the same as that one that's like an 8 but on it's side that Charlie uses does it mean like infinate number or something? The 8 on its side is infinity. The horseshoe symbol is omega (capital omega if you want to be fussy). In this context it means:

The equations are derived from the basic principles of conservation of mass, momentum, and energy. For that matter sometimes it is necessary to consider a finite arbitrary volume, called a control volume, over which these principles can be easily applied. This finite volume is denoted by Ω and its bounding surface *symbol that didn't copy and paste*. But the thing is...I just copied that explanation from the page you quoted. Did you not read it, or not understand it? :confused: (not being snarky here, just confused)

I think the "2" you speak of is not a 2 at all, but "del d" (or curly d), another greek symbol meaning partial derivative. A partial derivative is the rate of change of a multi-variable function when we allow only one of the variables to change. Specifically, we differentiate with respect to only one variable, regarding all others as constants. (source = http://web.mit.edu/wwmath/vectorc/scalar/partial.html). You'll come across this when you start calculus. You might want to consider choosing physics as one of your upper school classes though. I didn't really get calculus until I saw its application in physics - then everything started to jell, I figured out WHY were doing these problems. (Of course, that might simply have been because my math teacher had a heart attack at the start of the year and was replaced by a gym instructor with no mathematical training what-so-ever. We had to teach ourselves introductory calculus from the textbook. I guess it's not suprising that I struggled with it at first!)

[daisychain]

Okay, now I didn't understand a syllable of what Deetch posted above :o LOL!! but I actually do want to understand.
So, does anyone know of any sites that can explain concepts such as those used in Numb3rs (altho' I think I'll skip on the Pvs NP one - might be a teeniest too difficult :D ) only in terms that your complete mathematically challenged person could understand.
Maths concepts for complete dummies sort of thing. :o :)

[Deetch]

I usually use Lady Shelley's website http://www.redhawke.org/numb3rs/numb3rsindex.html
but it is very technical in places. Some of it I fully understand (the bits related to statistics and research methods) a lot of it I don't (all the other the bits :p ).

Someone (maybe fadedambition?) pointed me towards http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ but again, it's very equation heavy. :(

Because Charlie is an expert in all the mathematical fields, to find a basic explanation, it really depends on which math concept you're talking about. I really don't think you are going to find basic explanations of all the concepts in one site. :(

I'm hoping that now we've got a separate math forum, we can talk about the math in each episode and find basic explanations...that don't involve equations! :D

But were there one or two things you were interested in to start with? A basic explanation of introductory calculus or something Charlie has actually mentioned?

[daisychain]

I'm hoping that now we've got a separate math forum, we can talk about the math in each episode and find basic explanations...that don't involve equations! :D

But were there one or two things you were interested in to start with? A basic explanation of introductory calculus or something Charlie has actually mentioned?

Nothing in particular, really. I just get so incredibly lost in each episode...even at things that Don is nodding sagely at...it would be nice to try and get my head even vaguely around some of the stuff.

I like the idea of finding basic explanations for the maths used in the episodes in this forum. One of the brilliant things about this show is that it has interested people like me, who are totally crap at maths, in maths. It would be nice if we could further this interest and not be scared off by the really technical details. :)

[Pi_]

(...)

I'm hoping that now we've got a separate math forum, we can talk about the math in each episode and find basic explanations...that don't involve equations! :D

(...)
That would be a good idea. As much as I love posting pictures and staring at them, some diversification would be appreciated. I think there are not enough discussions here on the forum, be it about math or other topics. :)

[daisychain]

I think there are not enough discussions here on the forum, be it about math or other topics. :)


I agree. :)

I really enjoy the discussions that crop up in the threads and reading people's points of view.
Some of us have been discussing this lately. I believe Miz Em said she was willing to set up a discussion thread in Non-Numb3rs (obviously, the maths-based ones would be here.) I think it would be an excellent idea. :)
I know some people are wary of this type of thing in case it gets out of hand but if people post responsibly it needn't do so and if it's in it's own thread then people can choose whether or not they want to get involved in the first place. :)

[xoswimming08xo]

hey guy's thanks for everything i'm glad your enjoying my post :p my friends would be bored of it.

I've been thinking a lot lately I wish I could have the same math ability as Charlie Eppes I'd love that though I'd be so frustrated all the time if I wouldn't figure something out the way I wanted it to be like Charlie...

I love math now I'm so good at understanding the concepts of it after my math teacher explaines the steps and process of the equations and data we get during the hour.

My all time favorite equation I loved that I learned the 2 weeks before winter break was the Quadratic Formula that was so fun.

My teacher had told my mom that I'm better at grasping information if somebody explaines it to me then me reading it from a book...*coughs* i'm not much of a reader in books anyway *coughs again*

But yeah I think the math Charlie does is so sweet. I wish like I had said earlier that I had that ability to do math of course I am so proud of myself now because before I got to the high school I got F's in math cuz i didn't understand it with the one teacher i had then my new teacher I have he is such a great um person who can explaine things well? but yea now I get A's and B's in math and I just love math with all my heart.

The best score I've ever gotten (i've said this before on here--I think) was 40/44 or i think it was 34/30 but yeah I was the only one to do that and stuff it was so cool cuz someone in my class asked "Did anybody in this class get a score over 40 (30)?" after Mr.Zoellmer (my math teacher) and he smiled and he's like "Yeah Bri did" and everyone looked at me as I rolled my eye's and they kind of applauded me with "woo hoo's" and whistles hehehehe.

But yeah my point is I love math now that's what I love about the show AND CUZ IT DEALS WITH THE FBI!!!! *screams*

okay i'm good I'll shut up now lol

-briana-